in common with other apocalyptic writings, such as daniel and 1 enoch, john’s letter employs vivid, memorable imagery.
as with the other elements of his apocalypse (revelation), john draws on existing sources for his material.. meanings inferred from the images need to keep the following firmly in mind:.
1. the symbols had to have meaning for and be clearly understood by his immediate intended hearers.. 2. john intended that these images encourage those hearers to “overcome”, then and there.. 3. john anticipated that the coming of jesus was imminent, “soon”.. it is my belief that the images were intended to depict earthly opposition (rome and apostate jews) as well as heavenly opposition (wars in heaven involving satan).. the writers/compilers of daniel also employed vivid imagery.
Bobcat.
I looked at many places but without any joy. Such as at:
Were you able to download that PDF of the thesis that I gave the link for? It's searchable and you will find comments about Jean-Pierre Ruiz in it.
Also, a search for his name (in full) will tell you where he is currently -- and possibly contactable(?). I see that he is on a YouTube video, but I did not look at it.
Doug
in common with other apocalyptic writings, such as daniel and 1 enoch, john’s letter employs vivid, memorable imagery.
as with the other elements of his apocalypse (revelation), john draws on existing sources for his material.. meanings inferred from the images need to keep the following firmly in mind:.
1. the symbols had to have meaning for and be clearly understood by his immediate intended hearers.. 2. john intended that these images encourage those hearers to “overcome”, then and there.. 3. john anticipated that the coming of jesus was imminent, “soon”.. it is my belief that the images were intended to depict earthly opposition (rome and apostate jews) as well as heavenly opposition (wars in heaven involving satan).. the writers/compilers of daniel also employed vivid imagery.
Regarding the planets, Venus -- the Morning Star -- was known as "Lucifer". Jesus thus gives himself that name -- Rev 22:16.
Doug
in common with other apocalyptic writings, such as daniel and 1 enoch, john’s letter employs vivid, memorable imagery.
as with the other elements of his apocalypse (revelation), john draws on existing sources for his material.. meanings inferred from the images need to keep the following firmly in mind:.
1. the symbols had to have meaning for and be clearly understood by his immediate intended hearers.. 2. john intended that these images encourage those hearers to “overcome”, then and there.. 3. john anticipated that the coming of jesus was imminent, “soon”.. it is my belief that the images were intended to depict earthly opposition (rome and apostate jews) as well as heavenly opposition (wars in heaven involving satan).. the writers/compilers of daniel also employed vivid imagery.
What an amazing array of information. I am impressed.
I in no way pretend to know the answers, but my hope is that we are all inspired to read and research honestly and openly. And to then live our lives according to our own convictions, and to extend to others the same respect that we want for ourselves. My desire is to inspire research so that others will experience the excitement of challenge and discovery.
I believe Revelation had to have immediate meaning to the hearers, therefore any understanding of the narratives and the symbols need to be looked at through the directly immediate intended hearers. There can be no doubt that John drew on the supernatural imagery they were familiar with. But we must beware of imposing the ideas of different and subsequent communities upon that time.
As for accommodating the date of Revelation? My initial reaction is that we do not know what was originally written (which is true for all of those writings). The earliest written material comes to us from maybe 300 years later, and much had been done to the material during that time. I do not know the answer to that difficulty.
It is my view that a symbol represented either Satan or Rome (maybe as agents of Satan??) and that John built on previously known images.
I have looked online for the book, "Ezekiel in the Apocalypse", without success. It intrigues me.
In the process of searching, I came across this one, which might be promising. When you select it, it downloads directly (at least it did to my computer).
https://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1842/8887/Luo1999.pdf
Doug
in common with other apocalyptic writings, such as daniel and 1 enoch, john’s letter employs vivid, memorable imagery.
as with the other elements of his apocalypse (revelation), john draws on existing sources for his material.. meanings inferred from the images need to keep the following firmly in mind:.
1. the symbols had to have meaning for and be clearly understood by his immediate intended hearers.. 2. john intended that these images encourage those hearers to “overcome”, then and there.. 3. john anticipated that the coming of jesus was imminent, “soon”.. it is my belief that the images were intended to depict earthly opposition (rome and apostate jews) as well as heavenly opposition (wars in heaven involving satan).. the writers/compilers of daniel also employed vivid imagery.
Yes Venus,
You are citing a guy who created symbols, imagery, and a whole lot more. He is the guy who invented symbolism of baptism, invented the symbolism of the "Last Supper", who heard voices in his head, spoke with the spirit of a dead man, and experienced flashes of blinding light inside his mind.
It's all myth. Supernatural superstition. Only opinions. Read the history of the introduction of the gods into the world of the Israelites.
I feel that what should interest you more is the way that the male writers of the Bible took so much effort to write the Israelite goddesses out of existence, and as a result created a misogynist religion, with all the consequences in our day.
My question is: "What is it that gives the power of mythology over the human mind?"
Doug
in common with other apocalyptic writings, such as daniel and 1 enoch, john’s letter employs vivid, memorable imagery.
as with the other elements of his apocalypse (revelation), john draws on existing sources for his material.. meanings inferred from the images need to keep the following firmly in mind:.
1. the symbols had to have meaning for and be clearly understood by his immediate intended hearers.. 2. john intended that these images encourage those hearers to “overcome”, then and there.. 3. john anticipated that the coming of jesus was imminent, “soon”.. it is my belief that the images were intended to depict earthly opposition (rome and apostate jews) as well as heavenly opposition (wars in heaven involving satan).. the writers/compilers of daniel also employed vivid imagery.
In common with other apocalyptic writings, such as Daniel and 1 Enoch, John’s letter employs vivid, memorable imagery. As with the other elements of his Apocalypse (Revelation), John draws on existing sources for his material.
Meanings inferred from the images need to keep the following firmly in mind:
1. The symbols had to have meaning for and be clearly understood by his immediate intended hearers.
2. John intended that these images encourage those hearers to “overcome”, then and there.
3. John anticipated that the Coming of Jesus was imminent, “soon”.
It is my belief that the images were intended to depict earthly opposition (Rome and apostate Jews) as well as heavenly opposition (wars in heaven involving Satan).
The writers/compilers of Daniel also employed vivid imagery. They wrote while their community was under threat by Antiochus Epiphanes. Through the use of vivid images, John and Daniel were able to pass on supportive messages to their respective communities.
For his symbols, John made full use of the array of material available to him. There was no Canon of Scripture at the time.
The following citations on the imagery of the seven-headed beast provide Jewish and non-Jewish sources available to John.
==================
Common to both Yahweh and Baal was also a constellation of motifs surrounding their martial and meteorological natures. The best-known and oldest of these motifs is perhaps the defeat of cosmic foes who are variously termed Leviathan, ‘qltn, tnn, the seven-headed beast, Yamm, and Mot. (The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel, page 85, Mark Smith).
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A seal from Tel Asmar (ca. 2200) depicts a god battling a seven-headed dragon, a foe identified as Baal’s enemy in CTA 5.1 (KTU 1.5 I).3 (and reconstructed in 30) and Yahweh’s adversary in Psalm 74:13 and Revelation 13:1. A shell plaque of unknown provenance depicts a god kneeling before a fiery seven-headed dragon. Leviathan, Baal’s enemy mentioned in CTA 5.1 (KTU 1.5 I).1 (and reconstructed in 28), appears as Yahweh’s opponent and creature in Isaiah 27:1, Job 3:8, 26:13, 40:25 (E 41:1), Psalm 104:26, and 2 Esdras 6:49, 52. In Psalm 74:13-14 (cf. Ezek. 32:2), both Leviathan and the tannînîm have multiple heads, the latter known as Anat’s enemy in 1.83.9-10 and in a list of cosmic foes in CTA 3.3(D).35-39 (= KTU 1.3 III 38-42). This Ugaritic list includes “Sea,” Yamm//“River,” Nahar, Baal’s great enemy in CTA 2.4 (KTU 1.2 IV). In Isaiah 11:15 the traditions of Sea//River and the seven-headed dragon appear in conflated form:
And the Yahweh will utterly destroy the tongue of the sea of Egypt, and will wave his hand over the River with his scorching wind, and smite it into seven channels that men may cross dry-shod.
Here the destruction of Egypt combines both mythic motifs with the ancient tradition of crossing the Red Sea in Egypt. The seven-headed figure is attested in other biblical passages. In Psalm 89:10 the seven-headed figure is Rahab, mentioned in Isaiah 51:9-11 in the company of tannîn and Yamm. The seven-headed enemy also appears in Revelation 12:3, 13:1, 17:3 and in extrabiblical material, including Qiddushin 29b, Odes of Solomon 22:5, and Pistis Sophia 66. Yamm appears in late apocalyptic writing as the source of the destructive beasts symbolizing successive empires (Dan. 7:3). J. Day has suggested that this imagery developed from the symbolization of political states hostile to Israel as beasts. (The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel, pages 86-87, Mark Smith).
the speculation i am about to propose over the fifth discourse of the gospel according to matthew, which includes chapters 23 to 25, is based on the following:.
1. up to the time that babylon destroyed the temple in jerusalem in the 6th century bce, the nation was dominantly polytheist.
leading up to that period, the tiny monotheist “yahweh-alone” gradually exerted increasing influence.
I recall a dissertation on the Parable of the Talents ( Matt. 25:14-30 and parallels) that I came across a while ago, which probably I could now incorporate into my Model.
http://www.jwstudies.com/Craig_Evans_on_The_Talents.pdf
Doug
(thinking time music playing on the background)
the speculation i am about to propose over the fifth discourse of the gospel according to matthew, which includes chapters 23 to 25, is based on the following:.
1. up to the time that babylon destroyed the temple in jerusalem in the 6th century bce, the nation was dominantly polytheist.
leading up to that period, the tiny monotheist “yahweh-alone” gradually exerted increasing influence.
The speculation I am about to propose over the Fifth Discourse of the Gospel according to Matthew, which includes chapters 23 to 25, is based on the following:
1. Up to the time that Babylon destroyed the temple in Jerusalem in the 6th century BCE, the nation was dominantly polytheist. Leading up to that period, the tiny monotheist “Yahweh-alone” gradually exerted increasing influence. When the monarchy was overthrown and the masses decimated, the influence of the literate monotheists came to the fore. They created their own version of the nation’s history, and they laid the blame for the nation’s captivity, dispersion and the destruction of the temple at the feet of those who had opposed the monotheist’s preachers and prophets. Yahweh had caused the temple’s destruction because the people had not listened to the message given by the true religious leaders.
2. During the oppression of Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes in the second century BCE, Jewish leaders wrote coded messages of support to give strength and resolve to their people. They formulated the writings known as the Book of Daniel. Writing about past history as if it had been prophesied, the book’s coded messages were aimed against Antiochus Epiphanes. Similarly in the companion Book of Revelation, coded messages of support were given to John’s churches against their oppressors, the Roman Empire.
3. The Matthew gospel was written about 15 years after Jerusalem had been sacked by the Romans, its temple destroyed, and the people dispersed. The people who wrote that gospel had been the Jesus-followers who, unlike Paul, had been based in Jerusalem. Their experience was similar to that of the Babylonian captives.
Now to my speculative thoughts on Matthew chapters 23 to 25.
1. The writers of Matthew blamed the destruction of the temple by the Romans and their expulsion as being punishment by God. Their string of condemnations of the Pharisees at Matthew 23 represents the sentiment of the writers, which they put into Jesus’ mouth. (Writing 50 years or more after Jesus had lived, no gospel writer had personally experienced him.) At the end of their tirade against the Pharisees sect, the writers declared: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! … Your house is left to you, desolate.” (Matt 22:37-38, NRSV)
2. For example, speaking obliquely to the Pharisees, the writers claim:
“On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’” (Matthew 23:21-23, NRSV)
3. When “predicting” the signs of the temple’s destruction, “Jesus” tells them that it would not happen because they heard stories about disasters. These had always happened since the birth. The sign they seek happens when certain ones called themselves “Anointed”. My speculation is that the writers were aiming at the Pharisees sect (Jesus was a Nazarene), using code in the fashion that is used by the other apocalypses, Daniel and Revelation.
4. Jesus then predicts the punishing they had experienced.
I hang my speculative skeleton out to blow in the wind. Do the parables that the writers accumulated within this context hang together with my speculation? I have not given any thought to that. Perhaps in time I will.
Doug
i was discussing with an elder the generation teaching and telling him when jesus christ says in matthew 24:34 “truly i say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.” he was referring to the generation from the first century in 33 ad and these events that were to take place took place with the destruction of jerusalem in 70 ad.
now the elder tells me to go back to a few verses to from verses 29-33 which read: .
“immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened,+ and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.+ 30 then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief,+ and they will see the son of man+ coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The Matthew Gospel is structured as a series of five discourses. Each discourse begins and ends in the same fashion. Check the details with a search of the www.
The fifth discourse commences at the start of Matthew 23, with Jesus in the temple. After repeatedly berating the Scribes and the Pharisees (Jesus belonged to a different Jewish sect, the Nazorenes / Nazoroeans), the Gospel uses language to show that Jesus left the Temple both physically and spiritually. This leads into the question that the Gospel writers put into Jesus' mouth about the Temple while he was departing it. When they were writing, the Temple had been ransacked by the Romans 15 years previously.
In the following, Jesus' coming out of the temple and walking away from it has to be understood spiritually. Read it all from the beginning of the Fifth Discourse, the start of Chapter 23.
"See, your house is left to you, desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord.'" As Jesus came out of the temple and was going away, his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. Then [Jesus] asked [his four disciples], "You see all these, do you not? Truly I tell you, not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down." (Matthew 23:38-24:2, NRSV).
Doug
i was discussing with an elder the generation teaching and telling him when jesus christ says in matthew 24:34 “truly i say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.” he was referring to the generation from the first century in 33 ad and these events that were to take place took place with the destruction of jerusalem in 70 ad.
now the elder tells me to go back to a few verses to from verses 29-33 which read: .
“immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened,+ and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.+ 30 then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief,+ and they will see the son of man+ coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24 was written by an unidentified group 15 years after the destruction of Jerusalem. At that time, indeed throughout the first century, there was intense expectation that the "end" was imminent, within sight of their own generation.
The group that wrote "Matthew" took their cues from the story written by "Mark", who wrote at the time of the insurrection and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE.
None of these writers, living 40 and 50 years after the Jesus-event, either saw Jesus or heard him. Their stories are religiously crafted and structured messages to their own communities. In the case of the "Matthew" school, they wrote from a distance, possibly in Syria. They had experienced the expulsion from Jerusalem and its destruction.
Because they expressed their opinions about signs in the sky, that does not mean they were correct. There are many such Jewish writings, including the very influential 1 Enoch, which speaks in a similar fashion, and one needs to read them to gain a proper context.
Finally (that will please some), by "the world", "all of the earth", "all mankind", an d so on, the writers' visions extended no further than either their own land and its people or perhaps as far as the nations surrounding the Mediterranean. I leave you to work out the meaning of the words "Medi" and "terranean".
Doug
need some help explaining the falsehood of 1914 and this generation.
i am needing articles fod reference.
BiggerRed,
I have several decades experience dealing with 1914, as you will see by going to:
http://www.jwstudies.com/babylonian_captivity.html
You will find my email address there as well.
Doug
